[identity profile] gurrier.livejournal.com
[livejournal.com profile] ekaterinn explained when she posted that this story started as a sex scene, and grew into a longer, plottier story about a serial killer and hate crimes. She wondered whether she handled the issues and emotions in it well, and whether the alternating Fraser/RayK POV worked.

[livejournal.com profile] dkwilliams didn't even notice the changing POV, and felt the emotional tone worked well. She liked the use of Ray's instincts, how he quickly spotted a pattern. However, she felt the brevity of the story (showing its origins?) caused a couple of problems.

One of these was the sudden ending. The build-up of tension and abrupt ending was like "an amusement ride that suddenly plunges and then dumps you out at the bottom without a chance to catch your breath." She'd have liked more after-glow!

The other problem was a glossing-over of plot details. We don't find out why the killer became a murderer, or why he focused on Ray. [livejournal.com profile] dkwilliams thought more on the interaction between Ray and the killer would have helped the story.
[identity profile] sprat.livejournal.com
[livejournal.com profile] ekaterinn thought the blend of first and second person narrative worked very well in the first sections, where it brought "a certain wistfulness to Fraser wanting Ray." However, she thought the sex scene needed more intimacy than the style could support.

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 thought that the style in which the story was written put her as a reader at "too great a distance from [the characters'] emotions" to allow her to fill in the blanks very successfully. She pointed out several places in which she found Ray's actions confusing, including the spot where Ray asks Fraser why he's telling the story about Steve. She said "If the story had been written in a way that permitted it, I'd've loved more detail about what was going on in both their minds."

She also felt the end of the story, though happy, did not seem to follow clearly from what had gone before.

[livejournal.com profile] pearl_o agreed that the ending could have been stronger and had a clearer journey to it. However, she said that she'd intended Ray's questioning Fraser's Steve story to be "less a rejection and more sincere". She felt that Ray knew Fraser usually had a reason for telling his stories, and he wanted to know what it was in this case.

[livejournal.com profile] china_shop liked the story's voice, saying she finds it "lyrical and poetic, particularly in the sense that you have to look beneath the surface to dig out the meanings of things."

She questioned Ray's overall crankiness in the story, saying that although the style of story didn't allow for glimpses of what was going on in his head, she felt there could have been some hints for the reader (even if they were misinterpreted by Fraser) that he was feeling some tenderness. She felt that the obliqueness of Ray's emotions here "also undermines Fraser’s essential character", because he and Ray generally communicate very well in canon, and because Fraser is "a student of human behaviour". She thought he would at least question Ray's actions here.

She liked Ray's asking Fraser why he was telling the Steve story, saying it was a "subtle and lovely" way for him to attempt to find out if Fraser was trying to declare himself.

She liked the fractured timeline as well, and the story's dreamlike feel. But she said that "overall, I’d like more hints about what’s going on beneath the surface. Or maybe there are lots of hints, and I'm simply refusing to accept them. Huh. Maybe I really just want what’s going on beneath the surface to be happier and more hopeful than it really is."
[identity profile] sprat.livejournal.com
Gah, late again, I know. Sorry everyone! *g*

[livejournal.com profile] layniek4172 enjoyed the use of the "undercover-in-a-gay-sex-club" cliche, and thought the line Ray wanted to hit him. To kiss him. To do anything that would get his best friend to look him in the eye again. expressed Ray's confusion very well. She wondered about Ray's reaction to Fraser's comments in the club, since she thought it would have seemed obvious to Ray that Fraser was just pretending. [livejournal.com profile] zebra363 wanted more explanation for this as well. [livejournal.com profile] kijikun agreed that she could have elaborated on Ray's motivations here.

[livejournal.com profile] layniek4172 thought Fraser's voice was fine for the most part, though she thought having him use a few more contractions would ensure he didn't sound too formal. [livejournal.com profile] zebra363 agreed.

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 wished there was a little more explanation for how Ray and Fraser got from pretending to be a couple to the back-alley blow-job. She also wondered about Fraser's being portrayed as a good dancer in the story, citing his Mountie Sings The Blues...um, "dancing" to back up her point *g*. She thought Fraser might have danced well in an earlier episode, though.

She liked the bit where Fraser stared at the pink neon sign, saying it gave a clear image of where they were without simply telling the reader about the setting. She also had some grammatical suggestions--particularly, she mentioned that consistency is a good rule of thumb where punctuation is concerned.

New story coming right up...
[identity profile] sprat.livejournal.com
(Updated and reposted, because I couldn't edit the original one. Weird!)

Thanks to everybody who participated in the discussion! New story coming up tomorrow.

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 didn't really believe RayV's attraction to RayK, saying that she needs convincing for this pairing, and that didn't quite happen here. She liked the short segments, but felt the transition to kissing was too abrupt, supporting [livejournal.com profile] china_shop's suspicion that she didn't linger enough for the tension to build. [livejournal.com profile] china_shop felt that relying on the readers' investment in a pairing is one of her weaknesses

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 wondered about the sentence "Ray had liked Stevie, liked her a lot, which meant he’d never gotten to know her." She decided this meant there were things about Stevie RayV would have disliked if he'd gotten to know her, rather than implying that it isn't possible to like anyone you know well! [livejournal.com profile] china_shop said it was supposed to be about Ray not being in a position to trust anyone in Vegas, because opening himself up would be dangerous. [livejournal.com profile] zebra363 could see that interpretation, but thought the line "Ninety percent of the nice guys—and girls—in Vegas were cons" backed up her reading.

[livejournal.com profile] china_shop responded: "It's more that the dangers were present and the stakes were high, than he was *sure* she was a con." She wondered if a slight rephrasing of the preceding sentence would have made this meaning clearer.

[livejournal.com profile] kijikun liked Ray's voice and the end of the fic. She thought the ambiguity around Stevie's gender when she was first mentioned was cool, but wished it had lasted longer. She also wanted more detail about RayV's visits to the psychiatrist. [livejournal.com profile] china_shop agreed that she might have missed some opportunities to delve deeper.
[identity profile] gurrier.livejournal.com
ETA: This discussion will stay open until next Monday (Oct 17th), due to popular demand!

First, sorry for the delay with this! Router problems left me net-less for 3 whole days :( Now on to the summary!

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 didn't really believe RayV's attraction to RayK, saying that she needs convincing for this pairing, and that didn't quite happen here. She liked the short segments, but felt the transition to kissing was too abrupt, supporting [livejournal.com profile] china_shop's suspicion that she didn't linger enough for the tension to build. [livejournal.com profile] china_shop felt that relying on the readers' investment in a pairing is one of her weaknesses

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 wondered about the sentence "Ray had liked Stevie, liked her a lot, which meant he’d never gotten to know her." She decided this meant there were things about Stevie RayV would have disliked if he'd gotten to know her, rather than implying that it isn't possible to like anyone you know well! [livejournal.com profile] china_shop said it was supposed to be about Ray not being in a position to trust anyone in Vegas, because opening himself up would be dangerous. [livejournal.com profile] zebra363 could see that interpretation, but thought the line "Ninety percent of the nice guys—and girls—in Vegas were cons" backed up her reading.
[identity profile] sprat.livejournal.com
Sorry I'm so late with the summary this week. I've been moving, and have actually not had access to the internet for the past...five days? Decade? Something like that. *g*

Anyway, my apologies. And now on to the discussion...

[livejournal.com profile] gurrier thought that Ray's behaviour in the poem was in character, but that the voice sounded off--too analytical for Ray, not instinctive enough. She liked the structure of this line: "So I'll change my hair, lose the glasses, wear the leather, get the tat" but wondered if it might sound more Ray-like if it was more staccato--if the commas were periods, for instance. She also thought Ray might use less formal wording in places, and [livejournal.com profile] kijikun later agreed.

[livejournal.com profile] gurrier thought the last line of the poem described exactly how she imagined Ray to have been as a teenager, and that it was a nice set up for his growth as a character in Due South.

[livejournal.com profile] kijikun also thought that Ray's actions in the poem were in character for him. She thought that the issues with Ray's voice might be resolved if the poem was not narrated from his point of view, but from an outside viewpoint instead.
[identity profile] gurrier.livejournal.com
Sorry this is a bit late, RL getting in the way again!

[livejournal.com profile] riverlight especially liked the voice here, for both Rays. She enjoyed the characterization too - the details of what RayK finds hot, RayV using the "same steady gaze" on Larkin and RayK. She wondered whether RayK really would have 'really would have a "total lack of discretion in who he flirts with"', but decided she could see it.

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 didn't feel qualified to comment on the RayV voice, but thought the RayK stuff was excellent. She thought the time line was a bit off, that it might have been to late for RayV to bring RayK home to meet his mother. She found that the janitor paragraph threw her out of the story somewhat, that it was a bit slow. [livejournal.com profile] sprat said these were both points her beta [livejournal.com profile] china_shop had brought up!

Thanks to [livejournal.com profile] riverlight and [livejournal.com profile] zebra363 for their responses. Our next piece will be along later today!
[identity profile] gurrier.livejournal.com
Thanks to [livejournal.com profile] kindkit for volunteering her story, and to everyone who commented! Here's a summary of the discussion:

[livejournal.com profile] sprat liked the use of detail, which she felt gave an accurate impression of northern Canada, and made both the town and the relationship feel more real. She and [livejournal.com profile] zebra363both liked the OC Butch.

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 loved Ray's take on Fraser's relationship skills, and felt his thoughts sounded very in character. [livejournal.com profile] sprat thought Ray's voice was excellent, and particularly liked how he imagined he might have reacted to Butch while still in Chicago. She wondered whether he'd really have been able to hold back on his not-Fraser's-wife speech, and gave some examples of Ray failing to do exactly that. [livejournal.com profile] kindkit replied that she sees Ray's mouthing off as a response to authority figures, and that here he was talking to someone more mom-like. [livejournal.com profile] akite agreed that Ray would hate to be seen as Fraser's wife.

[livejournal.com profile] sprat questioned Fraser's characterisation, pointing out that in the show he's even more stubborn and reluctant to apologise to Ray than to others. She felt his uncertainty might be explained by feeling vulnerable because he's in love. [livejournal.com profile] kindkit believed that after Victoria, Fraser would be "deeply frightened of everything that can go wrong in love." [livejournal.com profile] dannymax agreed that Fraser is stubborn, and pointed out that he has been known to swear (however mildly).

[livejournal.com profile] zebra363 wondered whether gardening would really make Ray that sore, and felt that the mention of dancing in the paragraph about types of work was a bit jarring.
[identity profile] sprat.livejournal.com
Week one is officially done! Thanks to everybody who participated. There were some really thoughtful comments and some interesting discussions going on. I've done my best to sum up the major points below (let me know if I've misinterpreted you, though, and I'll edit):

[livejournal.com profile] tx_tart liked the character voices in the story, especially Ray's: "he's something of a smartass, but you know there is no sting in his words. He's entertaining Fraser. And he IS entertained. "

[livejournal.com profile] xtricks wondered if Fraser should have already known that Ray was attracted to him, as he's generally so perceptive. There was some agreement with this in later comments.

[livejournal.com profile] gurrier responded: "I'm more strongly attached to the idea of clueless Fraser than I realised. Or at least to Fraser acting clueless, and not dropping that act". [livejournal.com profile] nasrani later agreed. [livejournal.com profile] kindkit remarked that Fraser canonically uses his clueless act as a defense. [livejournal.com profile] zebra363 thought it was unlikely that Fraser would do this with Ray; [livejournal.com profile] gurrier wondered if he might be *more* likely to do it with Ray, as the emotional stakes are higher. [livejournal.com profile] riverlight thought it could be left unanswered, as the fic is in Ray's pov so we wouldn't know for certain what Fraser was thinking anyway.

[livejournal.com profile] kindkit commented that the contrast in moods between the first and last sections was jarring, and mentioned that the use of specific physical detail "gives the moment a really sharp focus and the effect is highly erotic."

[livejournal.com profile] riverlight commented that "and he's the skinny jittery guy with only a turtle at home again, but still." seemed out of voice for Ray, more like an outsider's observation.
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